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Post by nightwing on Feb 2, 2004 19:06:11 GMT -5
All the heroes have an archnemisis. The ultimate evil who is their ying to their yang. But who is the bad of the bad? Who is the most dangerous villian in the DC Universe?
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Post by Marx on Feb 2, 2004 19:12:32 GMT -5
I gotta go with the Dark one, he could kill all of the others with a stare...literally. Although, I gots to ask, where's my man, Doomsday?
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Post by nightwing on Feb 2, 2004 19:23:36 GMT -5
I've gotta go with the Clown Prince of Crime. Joker's gotta be the most dangerous criminal around. He's completely insane. There is litteraly nothing he won't do. He sees life as on big joke and death as the ultimate punchline. All the other villians may be bad, but they're more or less SANE. Even they have lines they won't cross. The Joker doesn't have those inhibitions. He'll do ANYTHING just so he can have a laugh about it. Doomsday... hmmm... Doomsday... Well... He sorta... didn't make the cut... Sure, he killed Superman (for a little bit) but what has he really done since? But he could fit under 'others' if you just HAVE to have him...
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Post by Jakazul on Feb 2, 2004 19:50:16 GMT -5
The Joker's insane, but I can twice that he's been concerned with anything more than Gotham. Ras isn't EVIL so I can't go with him... I'm not sure yet.
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Post by Marx on Feb 2, 2004 19:58:34 GMT -5
True, Doomsday hasn't done much, but ya know why right? Cuz he can't be stopped, there's no permanent way to take him out. I'll give you the Joker for the insanity thing, buuut if Joker, henchmen, plans and all went up against either Darkseid or Doomsday, you know who'd win.
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Post by nightwing on Feb 2, 2004 20:25:13 GMT -5
Yup. Joker would win.
Joker isn't only stuck in Gotham. He's on more than one occassion gone international with his insanity (i.e. A Death in the Family, Injustice Gang and The Last Laugh storlines) The only reason he bothers so much with Gotham is because that's where Batman and Robin are located. Those two vigilantes are his obssesssions. His reason for being. He wants to drive Batman insane and he wants Robin to die and stay dead.
Joker thinks outside the box.
He'd find a way to not only beat Doomsday but also use him for his own means. His Joker Gas for example. Doomsday still has to breath and if Joker could get him to breath his gas, then that's the end of Doomsboy. That's what makes Joker so dangerous. He isn't a fighter, he's a criminal genious.
If you read 'The Last Laugh' storyline, Joker turned Doomsday into one of his lackies. He's definently the big bad of the DC universe.
Not to mention Doomsday has been stopped by both Superman and Wonder Woman on several occasions. Doomsday is a dangerous fighter, but he isn't unbeatable.
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Post by fab on Feb 2, 2004 21:27:23 GMT -5
I think you're giving The Joker Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit,man. Seriously. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, and 'yes' I know your comic book knowledge is waaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger then mine but c'mon!!
Even if the joker could use the gas (you have to remember that Doomsday is about as fast as Flash), eventually Doomsday will return and the gas will NO LONGER affect him. Then what, The Joker will tickle the gray guy to death??? Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. What would be the point? All of you batclan-lovers-type seems to be master of one or two martial arts. I don't want to get my 'S' kicked.
I can't think of about a million villains that could easily take The Joker, I mean, Zoom for one. The Joker wouldn't even know what it hit him. Lobo (although I know he isn't exactly a 'Villain', per se), Despero, Darkseid, Sinestro could easily do when he was alive.
I'm not saying that Joker is a bad character, no I'm not, I love him, he's really creepy and he's one of my "favorite" antagonists, period. Not just from comics but from any kind of media. But I think we need to see the big picture here.
It's the same deal with Batman, sure he's a great character, sure he's extremely intelligent, but you also over-estimate him A LOT. Yes he could take any member of the League with the certain amount of planning, but any member of the league CAN take him down TOO with the certain amount of planning.
Yeesh, I'm rambling, anyhow that's my humble opinion, I could be wrong, I usually am but I just don't seem to give a cr@p.
PS: I just read "Superman: Secret Identity #01". One word to describe it: WOW! It's already in my top five "all time comic books fav".
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Post by nightwing on Feb 2, 2004 21:59:38 GMT -5
I get what you're saying Fab, but trust me when I say the Joker is the biggest bad.
Doomsday is a mindless animal. All he knows is 'KILL DESTROY KILL DESTROY' He isn't smart enough to anticipate Joker. And even if he were, the Joker's insanity would make his next move completely new and off the wall.
Joker on the other hand plans and has a lot of tricks up his sleeve. That is why Batman considers him his equal. Joker and Batman may be polar opposits but they both have major brains. Joker is the one villian who Batman can't always beat.
Joker already took control of Doomsday once. He can do it again and again and again. The only reason Doomsday escaped Joker's control the first time was because of Superman's interferance.
Read any other hero book that has Joker in it and you'll read how they all are glad Joker isn't one of their regular rogues.
And as for other villians, they have the same mentality that you do Fab. They underestimate Joker. They think he's just a stupid clown, and thus they never anticipate how dangerous he truly is. The Joker might be human, but his mind isn't.
As for the Bat-Clan, you can't seriously think that anyone else could take them down. They've tried and they always fail.
Batman for example is obsessively paranoid. He is always perpared for every situation that would come his way. No matter how impossible that situation may be. He knows how his enemies and allies think, and has adapted his methods to stop them.
Just read the 'Tower of Babylon' storyline in JLA. Batman had a plan to take down each and every super-hero on the face of the planet. And the ones that Ra's Al Ghul stole from Batman to use on the JLA were the non-leathal ones. Imagine what the leathal ones are like...
Even Superman says that he's glad Batman works with them, rather than against them. He knows that Batman and his people are the ones who could take them all out. That's why he trusted Batman with the Kryptonite Ring. No one, not even the Martian Manhunter's telepathy knows what Batman is willing to do in order to win.
They kicked Batman out of the JLA for a while not only because they felt betrayed (which if you ask me, they were being babies about it) but also because they were afraid of him. He was ready to do what they might not have had the guts to do.
The other heroes don't like to think about what would happen if one of their own went rogue. The Bat-Clan takes into account every situation and thus are prepared for them.
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Post by Marx on Feb 2, 2004 22:35:59 GMT -5
Ok, I'll admit I haven't read Last Laugh, and yeah, Doomsday doesn't have the capacity to outsmart the Joker, but for one thing Doomsday doesn't need to breathe cuz he can survive in space. But let's get to an easier issue, if Darkseid wanted to kill the Joker, it's as simple as Omega Beam, ZAP, dead. But back to Doomsday, and if Doomsday would have been under Joker's control for long enough, he would have gotten it out of his system. Unless something's been changed from Doomsday's system since Superman/Doomsday Hunter/Prey, and unstoppable monster is exactly what he is. And the Joker is one of my favorite villians, but I don't think he's as dangerous as Doomsday whose taken out entire planets and Darkseid, who rules an evil planet.
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Post by fab on Feb 3, 2004 10:04:45 GMT -5
I hate DOGMA-95 and Björk. I never had a problem with it until the day I meet a fan of the above-mentioned that just wouldn’t admit that none of ‘em had any flaws. And that both were better than everything else around. I got so sick of that close minded mentality that I started to hate DOGMA-95 and Björk.
To be honest I think that the same thing may be happening with the Batclan. It’s just ludicrous this kind of thought “Oh no! They’re unbeatable!”, “Yeah, right, not even all of the heroes of marvel, DC & Image put together can take out the Batclan!” Dude, BANE BROKE BATMAN! You know that! I know that! Everyone know that! The SLADE WILSON on several occasions beat the living cr@p out of NIGHTWING. WHO IN THE HECK CAN’t THEY BE DEFEATED?
You said that none of the members of the JLA could defeat BATMAN. That’s just funny. Really, really funny. INSERT FAB LAUGHING WEIRDLY HERE. J’ONZZ could easily just erase Batman’s mind. He did that to DESPERO once. DESPERO. His mind is way more advanced that ours. So it isn’t possible for him to do the same thing with BRUCE??
What about KYLE? I mean his control of the POWER RING is incredible and his power seems unlimited. Can’t he just created several hundred construct and kill BATMAN. For god sakes man, BATMAN is good. Really good. Naw, screw that, he’s freaking GREAT. But he isn’t GOD.
WONDER WOMAN proved on several occasions to be just as good hand-to-hand fighter as BRUCE (“Hiketeia” & “Some-issue-during-Joe-Kelly’s-run-on-the-JLA-book”). You might say, of but BRUCE is willing to fight dirty while she has honor and blah blah blah. She’s willing to kill. Haven’t you read “Kingdom Come”. That’ll take BRUCE’s edge right off.
FLASH. Okay, WALLY WEST. Speed force, ring any bells? He could travel back in time and kill BRUCE when he was just and infant. So what would BRUCE do? Throw his bat feeding bottle at WALLY?? I don’t think so. SUPERMAN. THE MAN OF TOMORROW. THE MAN OF STEEL. Capable of changing the course of mighty rivers.
BRUCE himself said on “Hush” or “Superman/Batman”: “Superman is unstoppable! You can only slow him down!” Even with the Kryptonite ring it was like throwing punches in a concrete wall. THOSE WERE BRUCE’S WORDS! And dude, in a few years, Kryptonite won’t have any more effect on CLARK because of the amount of sun radiation he accumulated. Then what?
My point is not to say that BATMAN is the WEAKEST LINK of the JLA. He is not. But he’s sure as hell isn’t the STRONGEST. I mean, for freak’s sake. We’re talking about the “BIG 7” here, dude. They’re equals! Don’t you think that is a just a tiny bit arrogant to assume that your favorite “family” is the best and would crush just about everyone else in any given occasion?
My point is to say that with a CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PLANNING. Any of DC’S greatest heroes (and maybe even some of not so great*) can make a really serious mess. BATMAN isn’t the only smart guy, man. He was defeated BEFORE and he can be defeated AGAIN.
Now about JOKER and DOOMSDAY. You said that JOKER is crazy and he can think outside the box. Dude, DOOMSDAY is a freaking force of nature. He’s like a hurricane or an Earthquake! Being “mindless” isn’t a flaw for him is a an advantage. He fells no fear, no pain. No matter what the situation is he’ll just keep on hitting. And be honest: ONE SINGLE PUNCH, from Doomsday is what’s need to send JOKER packing FOR GOOD! And Marx is write, DARKSEID could ALSO kill JOKER if he wanted to.
*Hawk in armaggedon??
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Post by Jakazul on Feb 3, 2004 10:44:26 GMT -5
Joker doesn't have the initiative to take over the world. Other than last laugh and a part in JLA, he just wants Gotham and Batman dead. Also, he's human, he's smart, but not as smart as a lot of'em and while he can fight fairly well (See No Man's Land) he's easy to beat. Bane broke Batman's back, true, because he tired him out. Even as exhausted as he was Batman managed to defeat all three of Bane's henchmen in a few pages and could've defeated Bane if he hadn't had the Venom. Bane's smart and strong, but I don't think of him as the baddest of bad. He's too narrow minded. Really most of the villains are. That's why Joker is "Batman's villain" and Lex Luthor is "Superman's villain" because even when they do go and fight other people, they're always primarily against that one hero that they're obsessed with. One think about Darkseid: He's not obsessed with Superman. He doesn't like him, but he's out to get the whole world. Doomsday is a good villain, but he doesn't have the brainpower. Anyway, I think that Batman could defeat him. He'd figure out Doomsday's weekness and use it to his advantage. The other thing about Bats is, you underestimate him really, not overestimate. He doesn't JUST use the gadgets, he uses his mind and his strength just as much if not more. You can take away that utility belt, but he can still take on a badguy and usualy win. Ras al Gul's just insane. He's not really essentially an evil person, he wants to do good, he's just confused on how to do it. I can't consider that as being baddest of bad. Shiva hires herself out and never goes too far out of the "henchman/assasin" range. She's just way too narrowminded and, even if she can beat almost anyone in hand to hand combat, she couldn't take on someone like Darkseid or Doomsday or, and this is the important one, the JLA. If you get the entire JLA in there it doesn't matter how good at marial arts she is, she's out. GL puts a bubble around her and without some kind of super-sonic device clipped to her belt she's pretty much trapped. Shiva's more intrested in money than domination too, she would have to have an employer. The only other person I can think of, and yall are gonna say I'm an idiot for this, is Ventrilloquist. I mean Scarface and Socko may be fairly useless, but what about when he was the Quakemaster? If he gets a personality that's obbsessed with world domination, he could probably come pretty close. I mean he toppled Gotham. Lex Luthor, just btw, I have mixed opinions on. He wants world domination, he could probably even come very close to getting it, but he's too obsessed with Superman to be as large-scale of a threat. Despero and Sinestro, Fab? Please. Despero can't take his own world, much less someone else's. Sinestro, yet again, would be too obsessed with GL, but I really don't think he could do it anyway. Batman or Superman gets a few good punches in and he's down. Also while Wonderwoman may be able to kill, but what's that got to say for her really? Batman beats them without having to kill anyone, no matter how much pain it causes him. Also, he's come as far or farther than all the rest of them without any powers while people like Flash take on the same scale villains with powers or J'on takes on an alien with every power known to man. Batman takes that alien on with intellect, a few high-tech gadgets and takes him out too, usualy without as much damage.
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Post by fab on Feb 3, 2004 12:18:16 GMT -5
ONE: I never said that DESPERO and SINESTRO could take over the world. The fact is no villain can. Not while, JLA, JSA, Titans, Outsiders or whatever is around. What I did say is DESPERO and SINESTRO can easily take down The Joker. And yes THEY CAN.
TWO: I am not whatsoever underestimating BATS. REMEMBER WHEN I SAID: “They’re equals”?? That’s what I meant. They are. What happens is you and pretty much everyone else in this site is OVERESTIMATING the BATCLAN.
I never said that BATMAN can’t take down Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman. HE CAN. But they can also defeat BATMAN.
I am not the narrow-minded one here. I am the only one who’s, apparently, able to see the whole thing without any favoritism here.
BATMAN is a great character, but he has flaws. BANE realized that and he used against BRUCE. What happened? BATMAN got his S kicked. Although BATMAN did defeated the three henchmen, he never put up a fight against BANE. He was way to tired.
If you guys don’t see that J’onnz, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and I’m not even going to cite guys like SPECTRE, CAPTAIN ATOM, FIRESTORM, ORION, ZOD, CAPTAIN MARVEL, well I don’t know. Seems like that little phrase apply to you all: “I’m not close minded but you’re just wrong!”.
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Post by nightwing on Feb 3, 2004 12:48:26 GMT -5
jeeze... obviously i've pressed a button on Fab. Fab, I will not deny that the bat-clan can fail. they have in the past (biggest failure is the death of Jason Todd). They're human and thus in-perfect. I'm not playing Favorites here, fab. I'm just looking at this from their track records and what I've always read in DC Comics. And that is the Bat-Clan are the most dangerous group of heroes in DC. But in the end, the Bats always come out on top. Bane broke Batman's back after Bruce had burned himself out. So what? Batman rehabilitated himself, learned from his mistakes and came back to later kick Bane AND Jean-Paul's collective asses. Protemus kicked Batman's ass on the JLA watchtower. Come round two, batman easily beat the living s**t out of him. WILLSON SLADE had never completely beaten Nightwing. It almost always ended in a draw or one of them would vanish and come back later. Those two have always been considered equal fighters. They're human, they can be hurt or killed. But that is what makes them more dangerous than all the other heroes. They have a better understanding of mortality and thus take the measures to avoid loosing. As for kyle, puleeze... that kid is still a major rookie and scared to death of Batman, who might I remind you already knows the best way to take out Kyle before he even THINKS about using the ring. Kyle might have gone through that Ion crap, but even he knows not to mess with Batman. And I'm not 'over-estimating' Batman and his team, but I do know that if you were to pit them against the rest of the JLA the smart money would be on the Bat-clan. How many times has the meta-humans been beaten and captured while the mere-humans are the ones to save their collective butts? Batman against Superman... yes, bats said Superman is unstopable. But that doesn't mean superman would ever win. Batman has always been able to hold his own against Superman in a fight and has almost always won because he's not afraid to cross the line and use deception and trickery. Sure if Clark could get his hands on Bruce the fight would end quickly, but that is why Bruce doesn't let Clark get close. And no, with kryptonite hitting Superman wouldn't be like hitting a brick wall. Clark would fold like a wet piece of paper. If the Kyrptonite is pure (which Bruce has) it will sap supes of his powers instantly and given a few moments kill him. I mean Robin who is considerably weaker than Bruce took out Superboy with a single punch while wearing the K-ring. Read JLA, Titans or Outsiders and you will see that the Bats are almost always one of the strongest links because they are the brains. In every team there is the heart, the soul and the mind. Without one or the other they are screwed. The Bats don't rely on super-powers. They're human pure and simple and work to be the best humanity has to offer.
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Post by Marx on Feb 3, 2004 12:52:10 GMT -5
That's just it, besides Doomsday's mind he doesn't have any weaknesses. When he was given Brainiac's brain in the Doomsday Wars, he was unbeatable, he was only stopped by removing Brainiac's brain from him. But let's get beyond whether Batman could beat Doomsday or not, the actual subject was whose the most dangerous villain. *whispers under my breath "Doomsday would spank Batman."* *looks around* Who said that? It wasn't me. <.<
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Post by fab on Feb 3, 2004 13:13:56 GMT -5
DEATHSTROKE vs NIGHTWING. Right after SLADE killed his son. DICK couldn't even managed to punch SLADE.
KYLE is not just a rookie. He hasn't been a rookie for a long time. I'm not even going to mentioned the Time where became ION, because that is a cheap shot. And even as GREEN LANTERN, no one, not even HAL or ALAN, could manipulate the ring like him. As for fear... Well that's just WRONG. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! One of the requirements is to be A MAN WITHOUT FEAR.
And Batman said himself: "Even with the kryptonite ring is like hitting a concrete wall. If it wasn't for the kevlar in my glove, I would have broken my fist..." Or something like that. Read "Hush". Where the two of 'em fight.
Superboy is 50% human so there you go.
I'm not even going to keep up this argument, what's the point? You guys already decided to you're right and everyone else is wrong.
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